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Shadowdancer tuning?
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iluth



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 164
Location: Blighty

PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 17:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

artic wrote:
iluth wrote:
... backstab is already quite strong...


Here we go. Yup, backstab strong, but you cant use it more than once on a mob usually. Unless you wait a while wich in most cases means the mob is gonna regen or gonna get killed by someone else. And engaginn the mob in melee is just not working. Melee is soo weak that i get hurt lot faster than the monster, and i need to run away.


Yeah, artic yknow i want the dancers to be a great guild too since it's probably my favourite, i just got stuck in the rangers by accident or something. I'm not randomly whining about backstab being overpowered if that's what you're thinking.

I know the downsides of backstab, but i also know its a very nice tool for making lots of solo exp. I think the tunes dancers should be looking out for are ones which boost their partying abilities without boosting their solo rate, like the ones mentioned earlier in this thread.

The stunning idea is really nice imo.
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khade
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Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 367

PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 22:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to be able to use good starters while waiting to be able to use backstab again, why not go into the royal archers and use a bow until the cooldown is finished?
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belannaer
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Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Posts: 566
Location: Oulu, Finland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 00:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iluth wrote:
The stunning idea is really nice imo.


Problem is that there's already more than enough ways to hinder npc's ability to perform in combat and I'm already thinking of a way to limit them, possibly by categorazing them and making only one per category work at time.

Shadowdancers need something else.
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iluth



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 164
Location: Blighty

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 06:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

belannaer wrote:
iluth wrote:
The stunning idea is really nice imo.

Shadowdancers need something else.


Well one of the problems with dancers partying is that often players don't want to wait around for a dancer to hide+stab. A usual exp party with offies will just attack everything. Dancers being able to use backstab as a combat maneuver might fix that. Since dancers are meant to be the sneaky sorts in combat i imagine they'd be circling around their enemies away from the melee to look for a decent chance to stab. Maybe using a skill similar to evasive combat from rangers.
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odovacar
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Joined: 29 Mar 2004
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Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 14:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an old idea, but I think it is very relevant: How about letting dacners train some throwing as part of the initiates guild? Rangers (and templars too, iirc?) get it pretty early on.
That way they could join masters of throwing without hours of throwing kaka at moles and get some nice throwing masteries and that added chance for stunning or whatnot.
Not too hard to code either Smile
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daic
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Location: Vaasa, Finland

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 14:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Templars have to learn throwing by doing. But rangers were able to train it upto 40 if i remember correctly.
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dunn



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 162
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 00:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iluth wrote:
belannaer wrote:
iluth wrote:
The stunning idea is really nice imo.

Shadowdancers need something else.


Well one of the problems with dancers partying is that often players don't want to wait around for a dancer to hide+stab. A usual exp party with offies will just attack everything. Dancers being able to use backstab as a combat maneuver might fix that. Since dancers are meant to be the sneaky sorts in combat i imagine they'd be circling around their enemies away from the melee to look for a decent chance to stab. Maybe using a skill similar to evasive combat from rangers.


I like Iluth's idea.

If any guild needs some sort of tuning to make it work, dancers would be it.

If the target is occupied with other front row members, then an assasin wouldn't sit around and attempt to go toe to toe with them but try to use the momentum to perform some sort of vital attack. They would not be actively engaged in melee, however.
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solar
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Joined: 03 Apr 2004
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Location: Kalajoki/Oulu, Finland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 01:12 am    Post subject: puukkojunkkarithan ne rules Reply with quote

dunn wrote:
If the target is occupied with other front row members, then an assasin wouldn't sit around and attempt to go toe to toe with them but try to use the momentum to perform some sort of vital attack. They would not be actively engaged in melee, however.

A truly great assassin would be able to be actively in melee while backstabbing... The moment the foe is distracted enough, a deft somersault/cartwheel/generic_fancy_maneuver and 1d3 *STABS*. Something nice for assassins with high masteries.

But even the best assassin would have great difficulties backstabbing his foe in a duel while his presence is known.
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suron



Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 147
Location: Oulu/Kalajoki, Finland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 05:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just an idea (ranting...)

How about giving the assassin a skill or mastery which allows hiding in combat with some limitations.

a) You have to be in a party of 3 or bigger and you do not get a party place, you are in stealth mode.

b) you are able to stealthily move in combat and backstab, stab, stabber, stabbest in combat and elusively back away.

c) you are activily in combat while stabbing so you will get hit also, but not that much, until you fade away. (ruuun forrest, ruuun)

d) You do not tank the mob, the mob still concentrates its efforts to kill the person in the front row of your party. You are just a hang-around-member of the party, not visible to the world. You emerge from the shadows in midst of the combat, dealing devastating blow(s) and then use skill distract or black chachacha of shadow escape and get into the shadows again and can repeat the system. If your masteries are high enough this thing would automatically repeat itself so you wouldn't have to worry about it until it fails and then you have to manually (trigger) it again.

This would give the poor dancers a completely different role in parties, unique only to icesus I believe. This way, as a dancer, you do not have to cry and wave your pointy kitchen knife at monsters ten times your size.


Solo dancers would perform as they perform now, this idea was only for party dancers.


Last edited by suron on Tue Jun 06, 2006 16:06 pm; edited 3 times in total
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osma



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 179
Location: Mississippi

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 15:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like D&D thief. During battle, if the thief can get behind the monster, then they flank the enemy with the tank, dealing extra damage based on level/skill. Can still be hit while flanking, but every stab deals bonus damage.
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suron



Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 147
Location: Oulu/Kalajoki, Finland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 16:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's so not like D&D rogue. D&D rogues can actually do something unlike s-dancers.
I didn't mean that they would deal extra-XXL damage with stabs, they would just whirl around and occasionally hit&run like mosqitoes. This could also perform as a distraction for the mob lowering it's defences, creating openings. (until it swats the fly).
The point was not to make them powerful, but rather cool.
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artic
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Joined: 14 Apr 2004
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Location: Tallinn, Estonia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 16:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one thing to make shadowdancers more partyable but not boost their solo rate is if a shadowdancer gets an attack opportunity when a monster is hitting someone else in the party.
When a monster concentrates on someone else, like tries to take a swing at a warrior or templar, a shadowdancer would get a chance to score an extra hit that cant be blocked or parried (because the monster is hitting someone else right now and he cant hit and parry at the same time). These hits wont be powerful (cause dancer melee sucks anyway), but because they are extra, it gives more reason for dancers to be in a party. And there is no solo-rate change, cause if the dancer is alone the monster will never hit anyone else and thus the extra hits dont occur.
The chance to get such a extra attack would depend on the dancers dex and some combat skills, but should still be fairly great to be of any use (cause, like a mentioned before, dancer melee sucks).
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dunn



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 162
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 00:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or!

At least make the dancer not interrupt their shadowdancing while partied and initiating their skill (trying to backstab), and party attacks. The dancer could emerge from the shadows and backstab while the regular offies are doing their damage without participating in the melee.
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aarmon



Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 104
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 06:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds more like dancer standing backrow and still inflect melee damage. and why not? =P
which assassin would stand frontrow _playing_ tank when it could hide behind some of the big mean meat walls and do a stab now and then.
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artic
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Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 475
Location: Tallinn, Estonia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 09:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dunn wrote:

At least make the dancer not interrupt their shadowdancing while partied and initiating their skill (trying to backstab), and party attacks. The dancer could emerge from the shadows and backstab while the regular offies are doing their damage without participating in the melee.


I Agree. If dancer hides BEFORE the party has attacked the monster they should not be involved in combat.

The current logic is a total failiure. If you are already hidden, how would the monster know where to hit? If you are already hidden, why would you leave you hidingplace and engage in the sucky melee?

So i think there should be an interruption, if you are doing the shadowdancer skill, but havent finished it yet. (like you get hit by monster so you loose your concentration or sumthing). But if you have finished the shadowdancing, and are hidden, No interruption should occur to backstab skill. Infact the success rate of the backstab should be even greater, becuase the monster is pre-occupied with fighting the party.
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